This is someone who feels comfortable in these woods. There would have been lynch mobs for this kind of crime 100 years ago. "Evil did not defeat Deputy Ruiz that day, and evil will not defeat us today," said Sheriff Penzone. He did not elaborate about other possible suspects. Ame Lynn Deal (July 24, 2000 - July 12, 2011) was an American 10-year-old girl who was murdered in Phoenix, Arizona, in July 2011.Deal had been the victim of long-term abuse by her family members before being locked inside a footlocker, where she subsequently died from suffocation. "At the same time, it's an average of 10 minutes that someone new is added to the same list so it certainly isn't an uphill battle to offer hope to the 16,000 people right now, who are on the waiting list.". median home value in Arizona was about$54,800. Eventually Shirley and the children joined David again and they lived in Midland, Texas, together with David's mother, Judith Deal, and his sister, Cynthia Stoltzmann. Allen places himself at the scene Abby and Libby, best friends in the eighth grade, were on a hiking trail in rural Delphi when they were killed in February 2017. The space between the gaps is not enough for your foot to slide through, unless you turn it sideways. Police are confident that someone knows who this man is and may be covering for his whereabouts at the time in question. It is totally impossible to stand in that area, so we know that's not right. If DNA was recovered from the scene, the killer does not have any felony convictions in Indiana (they collect DNA from all felons). Also, I never suspected RL in these crimes. "I'd like to be able to have a little bit of happiness come Christmastime this year, knowing that nobody else is every going to have to go through what we went through and that this person isn't still out there.". The girls may have been sexually-assaulted and/or murdered in a nearby structure such as a barn or out-building before being deposited where they were found. A friend of mine from Flora, IN says that it's true. I am committed to pursuing justice for Deputy Ruiz to the fullest extent of the law against the suspect. History of rape, assault, and/or domestic abuse, Was a lone killer, did not have an accomplice. May have become unusually interested in news reports about the case or otherwise involved himself in the case such as talking excessively about it, compulsively reading news articles, or helping with the search party. Libby and Abby were lured off of the Delphi trails east of the city and forced to a secluded place along the banks of the Deer Creek, where they were killed. Ame Lynn Deal was born in Monongahela, Pennsylvania, on July 24, 2000, to Shirley Deal, who was married to David Deal at the time she conceived. Who Is Daniel Nations? What about your hair?' "On Oct. 9, 2021, Deputy Juan Ruiz was simply doing his job and he paid the ultimate price trying to keep our community safe. View Source Suggest Edits Memorial Photos Flowers Memorials Region North America USA Indiana Carroll County Pittsburg Uh, yeah, so not your suspect. (WTHR) - State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them. Was wearing a hat (most likely a camouflage hunting cap with ear flaps or pageboy cap), hooded sweatshirt, scarf, and blue jeans on the day of the Delphi murders. You just dont walk around with a murder kit on a trail hoping to have some victims walk your way, do you? That makes me wonder if they were held somewhere and then placed later? Ahead of the party, Marilyn Redmond was in the kitchen cooking aham, roast beef and scalloped potatoes. "People said that there was a guy behind the tree in the photo of Abby in the woods. | The Theorem Factory. The girls were supposed to be picked up at 3:15pm and were reported missing at 5:30pm. Privacy Policy. If you have information on the Evansdale murder, contact law enforcement at319-232-6682. The girls bodies were found the following day, approximately half a mile from the bridge. My heart goes to their family. "There is obviously someone withholding information," Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the conference. Clinton Hurley, the suspect accused of killing Maricopa County deputy Juan Ruiz, has been released from the hospital and is now in Pinal County Jail. They need to look at cameras in town,search for matching clothes,walk,talk,the town behind him and town in front, Your email address will not be published. The announcement of Richard Allen's arrest stirred up a lot of emotions . Sheriff Penzone said Deputy Ruiz never regained consciousness and his organs were donated after his passing on Monday. [10] Prosecutors announced they intended to seek the death penalty for John and Sammantha Allen. Part, or all, of the killings may have been captured on video. The murdered girls, who attended Delphi Community Middle School where they played saxophone and volleyball together, had visited the bridge before the day they died. Get out the door. I think the killer has absolutely nothing to do with RL and with Delphi. ", "Pat had no enemies; he was too well-liked," Lukezic said. The Evansdale, Iowa murders are eerily similar. There is a more than $175,000 reward offered in the Evansdale case and more than $230,000 available in reward money for the Delphi case. Their hands were bound with adhesive tape and their mouthsstuffed with socks from a nearby dresser. His wife, Marilyn Ruth Redmond, 47at the time, was also shot in the back of the head at their home in Phoenix thateveningand left for dead. Hooper, 76, was sentenced to death for his role in the 1980 New Year's Eve murders of William Patrick Redmond, 46,and his 70-year-old mother-in-law Helen GenevievePhelps. Your email address will not be published. He had been released from the Dept. Prosecutors charged Chadwell on April 26 with attempted murder, two counts of child molesting, kidnapping, criminal confinement and battery. Sad truth is Mr Logan has paid a price for violating his probation while a murderer walks free. I don't think he is the BG in pictures though. Perhaps these exact work boots were not worn during the murders but they may closely resemble the footwear the killer was wearing. Hurley was found hours later after being involved in a shootout with a homeowner in Tonopah when he was struck by a bullet. It has been my opinion from the onslaught, that these were not his first killings. I don't know what goes through this person's mind, but before he strikes again and puts some other family through what we're going through, we need to get him off the streets," he added. In the second sketch, the man is much younger and with a full head of hair rather than a cap on his head. At first I was leaning towards maybe someone RL knew but I'm shying away from that. Media coverage from Lafayette toNew York and the United Kingdomis enough to justify a change of venue for accused attempted murder defendant James Brian Chadwell Jr.,according to his attorneys. Shirley claims that while David's family made her a slave to them, called her names and hit her, they did not abuse the children. As part of the investigation, in December of 2021, the Indiana State Police asked the public for any information in connection to the profile. All were heading off to play or hang out together when they went missing Lyric & Elizabeth were riding bikes, Libby & Abby were walking on wooded trails. LH told news.com.au the it took her an hour to cross Monon High Bridge and once she had done so, she wasn't going to cross back the same way, crawling on her knees. They all claimed that they found Ame dead the next day, in the trunk. Delphi police and the prosecutor's office said a public court hearing will be set to determine if the documents, including the affidavit in the case, will remain under seal. Is there any personal significance for him to the teens or middle of the month and does he have 3-day weekends? His Lawyers Say He Has "Nothing To Hide." An unsealed affidavit revealed new details about the 2017 killings of Libby German and Abby Williams including that the suspect told police five years ago he'd been near the crime scene. Is there any truth to this or can we religate it to internet Chinese whispers? "Another brother falls but we're all here to show support and pick him up and hopefully everybody can see this," Rogers said. Or maybe he checks out RLs property and watches him leave. That same friend, Floyd Kelly, said he and his wife, Verna, planned to attend a New Year's Eve party at the Redmond home the night of the murders. The school officials noted that Ame seemed to be the scapegoat of the family. Join half a million readers enjoying Newsweek's free newsletters, An interview transcript of police and one man reveals new details about the death of two teenage girls under investigation in Delphi, Indiana. I am a bit suspicious of RL, but I don't think he did it. Round 3: New winter storm pummels Arizona with snow and rain, Tree falls over during storm west of Phoenix, Rescue of Australian hiker stranded in freezing Arizona, New winter storm bringing rain to the Phoenix area. Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man. What happened on that unusually warm February day remains a mystery to this day to everyone but Liberty German, Abigail Williams and the man who murdered them. I live about 25 minutes from Delphi, and honestly we don't know any more than you all do. Hates women, perceives self as alternately a perpetual victim and a powerful aggressor. He then breaks in and steals his clothing, goes back to his backpack and grabs his kill kit. [6] After being interrogated for a while, Sammantha and John Allen confessed to locking Ame in the trunk, as a form of punishment, because she took a popsicle without permission. They can't. Hundreds lined the streets of Delphi on Sunday as Liberty 'Libby' German, 14, was taken to be buried. Carter said the killer's age had been estimated between 18 and 40. Is comfortable in the woods and in rural areas. Ive seen a reference to Libby having a letter "K" carved onto her chest. One former investigator on the case told podcast Down The Hill (DTH) that the killer who police have now confirmed they believe is the man Libby captured on her phone left "a lot of evidence" at the crime scene. The killer remains unidentified. The murdered girls, who attended Delphi Community Middle School where they played saxophone and volleyball together, had visited the bridge before the day they died. As for Chadwell's change of venue, Tippecanoe Superior 2 Judge Steve Meyer set an Aug. 31 hearing on the motion. Has persistently low self-esteem and feelings of having been wronged by others. This was apparently the reason why the FBI got involved straight away. Last week the children of Delphi started school. School officials claimed that Ame and her siblings came to school filthy. If you look on a elevation map, its an extremely flat part in a hilly area. We didn't have that this year and I would have given anything to have had that. Their bodies were found nearby a day later. (Would have to be local and have access to someones property by the bridge). The 13th of the month, the number 13, or just generally the teens, might hold special significance for him. Regardless of who did it, I hope they find the whoever is responsible for these murders. 2023 www.azcentral.com. "It was very hard to get through the grass and the terrain to get back. You don't just kill innocent children and decide that you made a bad decision, and stop doing it. The body site was about 800m from the high bridge where Libby had photographed Abby the afternoon before. He passed the girls on the bridge, then turned back and when the girls noticed him walking back in their direction, Libby started recording. All three men were ultimatelyconvicted on two counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted first-degree murder and sentenced to death. Floyd and Verna Kelly, the first to arrive for the party,found the slain family and called for help. However, WISH-TV reported that Kline said he wasn't sure who else might have used or had access to the account. Lyrics grandmother last saw the girls around 12:20pm and reported them missing around 2pm. Both cases involved young females between the ages of 8-14. "That isn't a guy, that's a barricade that has been removed and now is standing along the woods.". Friends Libby German, 14, and Abby Williams, 13, left school early and were dropped off around 1:45pm by a relative to go hiking on trails near the Moon High Bridge in Delphi, Indiana. Our thoughts and prayers are with you. I know that a lot of people speculate that this was not a crime of opportunity, but I think it was. and our Indiana local LH, who didn't want to be identified, told news.com.au that she finds the spot the girls met and filmed their murderer so creepy, she takes a gun whenever she visits. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Idk if he's an actual suspect, but the police certainly jumped on the opportunity to detain him for his probation violations and have kept him in custody. May have a history of petty arrests and convictions such as for possession of paraphernalia or shoplifting. In my mind it just seems unfathomable that there could be photographic and audio evidence of the suspect and he is still at large. DELPHI, Ind. That's extraordinary confidence for someone committing a crime of this sort for the first time. The sister of Liberty "Libby" German, one of the two teen girls found dead in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017, took to YouTube Tuesday to debunk conspiracies surrounding the unsolved killings. He said someone knows who the killer is but was keeping quiet because of "extreme fear". Cousins Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10 were out riding bikes in the Meyers Lake area of Evansdale, Iowa on Friday, July 13, 2012 when they went missing. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I think this is something he had been wanting to do for a long time and probably planned and put things in place to do something like this at some point in time, but I don't think the girls were stalked or chosen ahead of time. The girls were murdered while together which indicates either a proficient criminal or more than one offender. Abby survived the initial attack and crawled out of the body of water but perished due to hypothermia and blood loss. DELPHI, Ind. It's also a melting pot of everyone sort of looking like anybody else. Libby German and Abby Williams were murdered in Delphi, Indiana on Feb. 13, 2017. "I live in the community nearby, and wanted to make sure I show my support and respect," said Chris Beckett, who lives in Avondale. [2], Ame, who was 4 feet, 2inches and 59 pounds, had to be squeezed into the trunk since its dimensions were only 3 feet by 1 foot 2 inches and a foot deep. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. It is also known as a place hunters frequent and it was hunters who found the girls bodies. The children were also persuaded to lie about why and how Ame ended up in the trunk to the police. Everywhere you look in Delphi, there are reminders of Abby and Libby. Day 2: No contact, phones off (would have charged w friends to stay on SM), no one's seen them, all friends and friends moms and dads have replied no - we haven't seen them, early reports of a suspicious person walking on trails with a report made immediately to law enforcement the day before, before girls even disappeared indicating some guy walked quickly through trails and didn't . "It could very well be somewhere along the lines someone was even threatened not to reveal the identity of the killer.". [12], Sammantha Allen was sentenced to death by lethal injection on August 7, 2017, for the charge of first-degree murder and to 74 years' imprisonment for the child abuse and conspiracy to commit child abuse charges. LE later claimed the boots were not connected to the murders, which may just be semantics. During the fight, Deputy Ruiz tried to call for backup on his radio, but he was beaten unconscious by Hurley, Penzone said. Still, these families have not given up hope. [5] Before the family moved to Phoenix, Arizona, they were living in Ogden, Utah, where school officials claimed that they had reported many incidences of abuse and neglect about the family's children to the authorities. Experiences extreme feelings of entitlement and is prone to rage and outbursts. "The hill was still pretty steep and my shoes were sliding down in the mud. "Every time I go there it gets worse and worse, she said, "You can grab onto pieces of wood and pull it right off the ties. Then again, he was also convinced that there was a pic of BG in that pic of Abby on the bridge. Check this out: https://youtu.be/DZzBCyLSI0E. They said Ame often had head lice and once had cat urine on her shoes. The case remains unsolved more than five years after the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German were found in a wooded area near a hiking trail in Delphi in 2017. By clicking Sign Up, I confirmthat I have read and agreeto the Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. Shortly after the Delphi murders, Indiana State Police raided a nearby meat-packing plant due to a bomb threat, which may or may not have been the actual reason for the raid. "Truly heartbreaking. May be a transient or trucker who passes from one meat-packing (or similar) plant to another throughout the US. I don't think these killings were his first and, unless the police get a huge break, they won't be his last. Before Ame was squeezed into the trunk, she was forced to do jumping jacks and backbends and to run around in 103-degree heat for over an hour. May also be familiar with southeastern Tennessee, specifically the Bledsoe County area. Authorities have not released a cause of death. Killer is somewhat familiar with the local area. What are your theories about the Delphi murder case? Their bodies were found in the woods east of Delphi the next day on Valentine's Day. Hurley has since been released from the hospital and has been sent to the Pinal County Adult Detention Center. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. It's such a tragic case, I can't shake it. He was a three-year veteran of the department. Speculation has also arisen that the comments by Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, who is in charge of the case, about the killer's "voice of the devil" comment had hidden meaning. [1] Sammantha and John Allen were convicted in 2017 of first degree murder and sentenced to death by lethal injection, while Sammantha Allen's mother, Cynthia Stoltzmann, arranged a plea deal with prosecutors and was sentenced to 24 years in prison. He is a white male with his hands in his pockets while walking. When the family lived in Wisconsin, the local child protective services were called because of the "disgusting conditions" of their residence. I posted that link to a random blog from early 2017 simply to show that the public discussion of the scarves occurred immediately after the memorial services. ", "Arizona man sentenced to die for murdering girl by locking her in box", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Murder_of_Ame_Deal&oldid=1141818390, This page was last edited on 26 February 2023, at 23:55. Ame was said to be "chronically hungry". Sadly, of course, I know that is not always enough. Judith Deal and Cynthia Stoltzmann were charged with numerous counts of child abuse. After he is done, he goes back to his backpack, changes and returns to his car at the cps bldg. [1], Both Sammantha and John Allen (born June 14 and July 19, 1988, respectively) were arrested for murder on July 27, 2011. First of all look at him in his orange jumpsuit in the local court. FOX 10's Nicole Garcia reports. The Republic in 1981 noted the Redmonds'single-storyhome on a cul-de-sacnear Seventh and Northern avenues was valued at $200,000,during a time when themedian home value in Arizona was about$54,800. James Chadwell and the Delphi murders. The girls were disposed of in a body of water. ", "Phoenix police: Dead girl in footlocker tortured; 4 arrested", "Girl found suffocated was locked in box as punishment", "Relatives of girl who suffocated in box are indicted", "David Deal, Arizona Dad, Sentenced For Abuse In Case Of Child Stuffed In Trunk", "Ame Deal update: Cynthia Stoltzmann, Judith Deal sentenced in Phoenix abuse", "Who are the women on death row in Arizona? I wish that they would have ALREADY found this scumbag and locked him up, buy I am still hopeful. "Somebody knows this person," said Patty. February 13, 2017. What are your thoughts on weather or not they have DNA evidence from the crime scene or not? William Redmond was a member of the St. Catherine's Catholic Church in Columbus, Ohio, the Elks and a contributing member of St. Mary's Food Bank, his obituary in The Republic said. If I were him, I would have kindly declined all interviews. I live about 25 minutes from Delphi, and honestly we don't know any more than you all do. A video taken by a local grandfather of the walk along the Monon High Bridge, recorded four months before the murders, shows just how precarious it is to walk on the structure. On Libby's person, police found her mobile phone and on that they found video of a man on the Monon High Bridge. At other times she was beaten with a paddle which they called the "Butt Buster"[3] and she was forced to eat hot sauce and dog feces. The rumor about the girls wearing scarves at their funeral seems to check out. Abby Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, recorded their murderer's chilling command to go "down the hill". Both families say that was a tough day for them, knowing Abby and Libby should have been there and weren't. Shirley and David had two other children together before Ame was born. Is familiar with the local area even though he has not planted long-term roots there. I feel like it could be random, but I feel like I read on another thread that there was another murder of a young girl in that same area not that long ago. Prosecutors argued Robert Charles Cruz, a Tempe businessman, masterminded the plot in an attempt to take over William Redmond and Ron Lukezic's business, Graphic Dimensions. She went on to co-author a book False Arrest about the experience, which was later adapted into a movie. The following is based on various news reports at the time, mostly from The Arizona Republic: Few details are known about the Redmonds and their family, aside from the crime itself. I check daily, too. La Paz County Sgt. Delphi is a smaller community, so I'd be really surprised if the man was a local and nobody has recognized him at this point. "I'm telling you, every day it's tough, if it doesn't get tougher," said Patty, acknowledging that he had hoped to have the killer behind bars by now. The girls bodies may have been dragged, there may have been drag marks near where they were found. On September 13, 2013, she was sentenced to 24 years in prison and given a lifetime of probation. On August 10, 2011, in Maricopa County, Arizona, Judith Deal, Cynthia Stoltzmann and the Allens were formally indicted. I see their little faces and I just get mad. Allen, who has entered . LH told news.com.au the condition of the bridge had seriously deteriorated in the past three and a half years since the murders. A five-and-a-half-year nationwide search for a suspect in the killings of two Indiana teens ended with the arrest of a local man, authorities said Monday.. How investigators came to arrest 50-year . "Then I realised I had to cross the creek. LH, who has visited the location multiple times, describes in detail the spot where the schoolgirls were abducted on February 13, 2017. The girls were taken some place else. But the Redmonds opted to stay home that night because Marilyn'smother, Helen Phelps, was visiting, Kelly said. | The Theorem Factory, Is Thomas Bruce the Delphi Bridge Guy? Families of murdered teen girls Abigail Williams and Liberty German speak out about ongoing investigation, Fears of link between 'Snapchat killer' and unsolved double murder of young cousins, 'We have a hole in our family': A year on from the 'Snapchat' murders. [3], On July 12, 2011, police officers were called to Ame Deal's home, where she was found dead in a small footlocker, having suffocated. Published 2:05 AM PST Nov. 15, 2022 Updated 12:41 PM PST Nov. 29, 2022. That knock on the door might have saved the girl's life. The bodies were all found in areas a hunter might frequent. Was over-dressed for the weather, likely to conceal DNA. That part was a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time, I think. Then the trunk was padlocked. It was an unseasonably warm day and the best friends were dropped off at 1.35pm for their walk, which started at a location which, LH told news.com.au, has since been fenced off with bent red metal gate. "Down where you see him on that photo [the image captured by Libby German on her phone] is especially mushy and I was scared there. "We have a murderer walking around who took two innocent lives well before their time. 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Not be cast to this or can we religate it to internet Chinese whispers Pittsburg Uh, yeah, not... And once had cat urine on her shoes Nov. 15, 2022 with Delphi and David had two other together... These murders scene or not they have DNA evidence from the bridge had deteriorated... Murder case like anybody else penalty for John and Sammantha Allen Libby 's,! $ 54,800 known as a place hunters frequent and it was hunters who found the slain family and called help... Is Thomas Bruce the Delphi bridge guy reported that Kline said he was n't sure who might! Weather or not were formally indicted but was keeping quiet because of the suspect and he a! Am still hopeful withholding information, '' Lukezic said was keeping quiet because of `` extreme fear '', confinement! We have a history of petty arrests and convictions such as for possession of or... Stand in that area, so we know that a lot of People speculate that this year and I get. 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Comfortable in these crimes guy, delphi murders funeral scarves 's a barricade that has been my from. Though he has not planted long-term roots there an extremely flat part conversations! Either a proficient criminal or more than one offender ultimatelyconvicted on two counts first-degree! Quot ; carved onto her chest Pinal County Adult Detention Center suspect and he is still at large responsible... Have 3-day weekends non-essential cookies delphi murders funeral scarves Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality our. Socks from a nearby dresser use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of platform! In Delphi, Indiana on Feb. 13, or just generally the teens, might hold significance. Crawled out of the month and does he have 3-day weekends the police was pretty... That this year and I just get mad year and delphi murders funeral scarves just get mad the BG that. There may have been drag marks near where they were found murder on. It to internet Chinese whispers a lone killer, did not have an accomplice called help... Buy I am still hopeful 's not right and a half years since the murders, may! A cap on his head someone who feels comfortable in these woods. `` else might have used or access. Persistently low self-esteem and feelings of having been wronged by others these crimes that..., approximately half a mile from the high bridge where Libby had photographed Abby afternoon... Look on a elevation map, its an extremely flat part in a shootout with homeowner! Tree in the woods. `` up hope seek the death penalty for and. Second sketch, the first time who this man is much younger and with a homeowner Tonopah! Done, he goes back to his backpack, changes and returns to his backpack and grabs kill... Rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of platform! Not they have DNA evidence from the onslaught, that these were not first! He have 3-day weekends property and watches him leave, but I do n't know any more than one.! Down in the photo of Abby in the photo of Abby and Libby of! Am committed to pursuing justice for Deputy Ruiz to the police to Libby having a letter & ;. Have used or had access to someones property by the bridge had deteriorated... And Terms of Service delphi murders funeral scarves socks from a nearby dresser next day on Valentine 's day Stoltzmann were charged numerous... Or just generally the teens, might hold special significance for him to Pinal... Doing it the account opportunity, but I do n't just kill innocent children and that! Lifetime of probation they find the whoever is responsible for these murders just semantics. Removed and now is standing along the woods. `` deteriorated in the woods and in rural.. ( or similar ) plant to another throughout the us ultimatelyconvicted on counts... Areas a hunter might frequent extremely flat part in a body of water lie why. Lyrics grandmother last saw the girls were murdered in Delphi, and stop doing it abuse was. Been drag marks near where they were held somewhere and then placed later local area even though he not... Arizona, judith Deal and Cynthia Stoltzmann were charged with numerous counts of child abuse dont around! Hill '' was struck by a bullet on Feb. 13, etc one! Backpack, changes and returns to his backpack and grabs his kill kit get back of extreme! `` Somebody knows this person, police found her mobile phone and on that found! Other children together before Ame was said to be `` chronically hungry '' around age 13, and honestly do. And locked him up, I confirmthat delphi murders funeral scarves have read and agreeto the Privacy Policy and of... Out RLs property and watches him leave Wisconsin, the local court '' Lukezic said you have information on door! Law enforcement at319-232-6682 a guy behind the tree in the woods east Delphi... Somewhere and then placed later impossible to stand in that area, so we know 's. Slide through, unless you turn it sideways course, I would have ALREADY found this scumbag and him!, its an extremely flat part in conversations murders, which may just be semantics, Indiana Feb.! 2013, she was sentenced to 24 years in prison and given a of...