Today that little churchis her home church. 3. a rapist, 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. 104:1415). I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). Cultural/societal/political issues are at play in all of life. I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. I have read every single post youve made in this thread so far. Now to deal with your concerns in a more general sense (and this is where it seems we differ), in my experience most churches arent in any way qualified to deal with alkies. Its not helpful, I know. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. Many members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, the church that he started in Virginia, and then subsequently resigned from after hisdefrocking in 2006, often witnessed RC Sproul Jr inebriated, including at various church celebrations (i.e. Lisa claims that RC Jr Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Lisa probably has little if any practical experience with alkies. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! So Ill start to believe that RC is repentant when he contacts me personally to confess and repent of all the damage he caused me and my family. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. The other does not. I had to research my problems on my own to figure out what was wrong with me, and to find solutions. Will his wife? No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. We must try to get help for suffering people: medical intervention AND psychiatric intervention. They abuse the gift of grace, and on top of that, they model that abusive behavior to people who lack discernment. Hurting people are not the only ones who hurt people. This blog should be the last place to be unsafe though. Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. I dont think so, but he meets the clinical criteria of being a sociopath, a narcissist, and a pathological liar. keggers). Velour wrote: I verified this myself, at the site, at the time. 1. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. Alcohol abuse has played a part in that, yes, but RC Jr would have still been a spiritual bully and done the same things had he been a teetotaler too. Heres my list again to you of the issues, and I have already covered what you have raised in my list in Point #2: That R.C. but alcoholism causes medical and psychiatric problems if not treated, and these problems deserve intervention. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Sure, those consequences may be really really hard. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. Search Vestal obituaries and condolences, hosted by Echovita.com. from her years of alcohol abuse. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. When you spend so much of your life covering up sins, Im sure there is a need to numb that kind of pain. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. I was answering your question to me and what Barbara wrote to H.U.G. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. H.A. And, yes, there is more. (I have also wondered about several other NeoCal pastors, including Doug Wilson, and if they are alcoholics. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. For example: Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Sorry dear, but you couldnt be more wrong. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. Even in his recent Ashley Madison scandal his punishment of being suspended from Ligonier Ministries turned out to be a reward. Methinks you proclaimed the gospel. You didnt, however, explain your reasoning for such a drastic step. If that is the case, the person who says, Aw, come on. He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. We were reluctant to write about this since he continued in ministry under his dad. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. Family (1) Trivia (1) Christian theologian. Should American reformed pastors who are exhibiting chronic alcohol issues be suspended or put on sabbatical from the duties of the pulpit until proper medical treatment has been satisfied and consistently verified? It was commonplace at those church parties that minor children were served alcoholic beverages, including drinks spiked with Everclear (190 proof grain alcohol). We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one another's burdens. Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. Leave these people alone and repent. Sproul was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as the second child of Robert Cecil Sproul, an accountant and a veteran of World War II and his wife, Mayre Ann Sproul (ne Yardis). I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! did comment above and gave us some important facts (and a lot of fiction too): However, aswe noted previously,Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. The addict builds up a tolerance over time. In that hearing RC Sproul Jr plead guilty to one of four criminal charges against him: 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. I, on the other hand, enjoy a glass of wine occasionally. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. She was wise enough to divorce him and move across the country. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. Thank you. @ okrapod: I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. She had trouble finding work, but volunteered at church and around town about 60 hours a week. I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. They guy went to another church in the same denomination and auditioned or whatever you call it for the head preacher job. You live in Louisiana, amirite? We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. Pick up any newspaper and read. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). My brother is a drug addict & alcoholic. Wow! You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). . I think that if RC2 truly loves his children, he will get himself some serious, serious top-drawer psychological and medical help. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. ^ " ^ . and I have a problem with the Bible. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. But some of us here also have not just experience with alkies in general. I was about to defend you, until I saw the word livers in there. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: 1. He does not operate in the same universe as many of us if I ever did even one thing he did I would have been shown the door, day one. And his family needs it as well for living with a problem drinker. If so, a shame he did. It was in response to this. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. Hes not going to jail or treatment? Or for his wife? In the end, people hurt. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one anothers burdens. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. She did not show that she had no clue. Sopy A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. How do you see it different from me? I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. Has that been reported on or discussed? Right. So, you feel that Sproul Jr should be fired as pastor but be allowed to sit in a church as a regular member, yes or no? Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions. oh my goodness .. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. Obviously, I dont know what goes on behind closed doors. Serous help? 2. But it should be tried. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? How do you realistically deal with the tragedies hes faced with those beliefs? Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). Is it only Christ? @ Claire: But if you need some level of safety, then be cautious. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. Sproul Jr. can be exposed. Preach it sister! So-yeah for women in surgery, but yeah for the men also. Radiology was the only thing I was board certified in. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. Which is sad & lonely. (Guy was kind of a jerk, but still) He was taking a shortcut home from work on his motorcycle when a drunk head-oned his bike. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. posted earlier to the other website dealing with Sproul Jr. In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. We are the body of Christ. They know theyre drunk so they slow way down, and this gives them away. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.) Let me explain myself. And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. And guess what Yeah. RC Sproul Jr has characterized abortion as a terrible form of violence and a "holocaust" against the pre-born. Would love to see some stats on that. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? ), When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. I was very happy to see him. Barbra said that R.C. Beloved theologian R.C. And yes, we must continue to pray. IMO, any so called Christian who is not angry about this needs to take a good look at their own heart. (let alone applied in practice?). He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. throw him out of the house. There are many women, including older women, who struggle with addictions. Hes ordered his parishioners to shun entire families and hes destroyed the faith of many people as a result of his vindictiveness, including small children. EVERYBODYS DOING IT! If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. No, I saw your list. But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Velour wrote: Well, according to their own theology, hes not. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. So for right now thats as much as Im going to say, at least until I can start to feel like this is a safe place. They are not consigned to their pasts. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Do they criticize non-drinkers? Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. In the 12-point plans that are out there, an alcoholic would do well to pick Jesus as his higher power. You would think a preacher would have that figured out. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. She and I part theological company. Ive said so. @ Velour: 1960. Shannon Sproul passed away in 2012, not 2014. Even Jehovahs Witnesses dont shun entire families for the alleged sins of one family member. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people.. But interventions and treatment does work. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. So I am left with confusion. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. He is now a wonderful father and husband. Just wanted to say, this echoes the thoughts that have been running through my mind after reading the article. Much as I hate to say it. When your theology is based on exclusionary principles, you have to accept the consequences when that sword cuts the other direction. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. You have to live into a very small world not to know that. Im just acknowledging the reality of what was your life and what is their life. In time, the spouse of a problem drinker will have clarity as to how to proceed. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. RC Jr does. Seen too many neglected children, too many doormat wives, too many run ins with family members, cops, late night contentious phone calls, etc , etc. I am glad that your friend survived. Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. 13. The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. I only agree with this to the extent the Church is willing to do the same for any member of their church who should need the same. Im not sure what the Christology OR the Trinitarian doctrines are of the Ligonier group, I have already done that. claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. Will he receive it? These need compassion. It is one thing for someone like R.C. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. Perhaps cushion the fall but still let them fall. This is so dangerous. It is complex. And yes, we must continue to pray. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. It is always a pleasure to read her advice on legal/medical/mental matters, as her experience clearly shows. Velour wrote: Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. Heres a quote from at least as far back as 2005. As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. No, I saw your list. They do more harm than good. In order for the body of Christ to function properly each Christ believer must follow Jesus Christ first and foremost. Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. His whole life changed, and being with him was completely different from then on. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. You arent making any sense in your belief that were all supposed to intuit what Barbara is thinking and therefore she doesnt have to say it. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? So glad you are with us today. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. Alcoholism changes the persons brain. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. I realize that you and I may not ever come to a point of complete agreement. It wont. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. This man, if all that is being said is true, is guilty of causing scandal-that is lots worse than just being some pitiful old drunk. Please include what quote you are talking about. I think both him and his dad would have been jerks with or without alcohol. And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. Two or three witnesses principle. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Julie Anne can be reached at: JA@SpiritualSoundingBoard.com, Kathi can be reached at: Kathi@SpiritualSoundingBoard.com. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. 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